Khaos Dwarf Beta Army list Available!

Hi Guys,

In conjuntion with Beasts of War we have released the Khaos Dwarf Army List for Kings of War!

Khaos-Dwarfs-BETA-Thumb

At this stage the list is still a public beta, so we are looking for feedback from everyone to make sure that the Khaos Dwarfs fit in with the rest of our range.

You can leave comments here.

Or drop us your suggestions below.

21 Comments

  1. Mantic Blog – Khaos Dwarf Beta Army list Available! http://www.manticblog.com/?p=2482

  2. How nasty are the ‘Thunderpipers’? Breath attack 20, nice, I know they only have a range of 12 but you still wouldnt want to be caught in that ! Kill them, kill them all! Nice one guys……..I picked it up on Friday from BOW, and now we see where the Orcs currently sit!

  3. Warmachines are very strong, and i like the centaur cavalry!

  4. I like the list a lot at first glance. What worries me however is it seems like the Khaos Dwarfs ultimately just provide more options than Dwarfs. rendering the Dwarves themselves a bit pointless.

    Blacksouls are identical to Ironclads, save they get superior doggies and the option to swap shields for two-handed weapons at the generals choice. Perhaps they should automatically take the two-handed weapons? This would distinguish them a a bit more.

    The Thunderpipers and Ironwatch are legitimately different, no problems there.

    The Immortal Guard are again identical to the Ironguard, but gain the free option to swap shields for two-handed weapons. In this respect they are strictly superior to the Ironguard.

    Dwarf Berserkers are superior to the Khaos Beserkers, having a superior Defence and Nerve for the same cost. I assume this is meant to balance out the fact that the Khaos Dwarfs have other innate advantages over the Dwarfs, but it suggests that the Beserkers are the only reason to play Dwarfs over the Khaos Dwarfs outside of fluff.

    Khaos Dwarves get Centaurus Cavalry, at this point in time the Dwarfs have nothing comparable. The same can be said for Slave Orcs (and I love the idea of Slave Orcs over Goblins. *Love* it).

    There’s a fair amount of difference between the War Machines of the two armies, but the Khaos Dwarfs obviously have a wider selection of Characters.

    I think the key problem is the lack of any real difference between the Ironwatch/Blacksouls and the Ironguard/Immortal Guard. I think it’d be better if the Khaos Dwarfs were forced to use Two-Handed weapons, or, if kit doesn’t allow this, to at least change their stats. Say giving the Chaos Dwarfs one less defence than their Dwarf brothers but an extra point of Melee skill.

    Really looking forward to getting a chance to playtest the new list. As it is though I think the Dwarfs have lost some of their thunder.

  5. Hello ! A small issue there : a troop of 10 Thunderpipers should follow the Breath Attack (10) rule, not (20). It would make much more sense !

    Then, Insane_Prophet is right : some Khaos Dwarfs’ units are too similar with their Dwarfs counterparts. I want some unique rules ! Thus, the list is much more developped than Dwarfs’. Should we lower in quantity Khaos Dwarfs troops ? No. Should we add more units in the Dwarfs’ list ? Hell yes !

  6. Moreover, I donnot see any Goblin Advisor in that list… What is the purpose of the mini then ?

  7. [quote] I think the key problem is the lack of any real difference between the Ironwatch/Blacksouls and the Ironguard/Immortal Guard. I think it’d be better if the Khaos Dwarfs were forced to use Two-Handed weapons, or, if kit doesn’t allow this, to at least change their stats. Say giving the Chaos Dwarfs one less defence than their Dwarf brothers but an extra point of Melee skill [/quote]

    I was thinking something similar to this, especially the later 🙂

  8. As Guillaume L. says I wouldn’t want to reduce the options available to the Khaos Dwarfs, but as it stands it seems like the Dwarfs should either get some new options, or the some of the Khaos Dwarf units should be changed, at least in terms of their statline.

    I forgot to mention that Dwarfs have access to Shieldbreakers, but I don’t think it’s much of an advantage as Blacksouls can be made into essentially the same sort of unit using the two-handed weapon rules.

    It says that every unit in the Khaos Dwarf list is Headstrong. Is this correct? I really feel like it shouldn’t apply to the Slave Orcs, especially if they’re Yellow-Bellied (i.e Cowards). Of they’re still Headstrong the special rule should probably be “Disobedient”, “Surly” or some such,

    In fact, maybe the Khaos Dwarfs shouldn’t be Headstrong overall? That would give the Dwarfs something of a different flavour, while the KDs have access to other advantages, Or they could always have a different army special rule, though without knowing Mantic’s fluff for the race it’s hard to sure what that would be.

    I don’t mean to be overly critical. I’m very excited by the list and the addition of a new army, I just wouldn’t want it to be too much at the expense of a current, similar one.

  9. Whoops! Just remembered that Yellow-Bellied units cannot be Headstrong. No problem there then.

  10. The Khaos dwarf list looks good overall but i agree with some other posters that the Black Souls and Immortal guard are too samey with their dwarf counterparts. This is enhanced by the fact that both lists have the same army special rule.

    I m all for ballancing the troop types and to not go overboard with special rules but I would like to see that every army has its own flavour and the way to do this is to give each army its ows special army rule.

    @Insane Prophet
    Dwarf berserkers only have a better nerve then their Khaos dwarf counterpart, their defence is worse.

  11. Played about with the army list this evening. Not a full game, but we got a chance to compare the Khaos Dwarf and Dwarf units.

    It was hard not to feel like the Khaos Dwarfs were simply Dwarfs with more options. By comparison the Dwarfs felt a little vanilla. Blacksouls/Ironclad and Ironguard/ Immortal Guard are just too similar, with the Khaos Dwarfs getting free extra options.

    Obviously I was wrong earlier when I said that Dwarf Beserkers had a superior defence to their Khaos Counterparts (I think my eye caught the Sheildbreakers). The two units felt subtly different, but about equal overall.

    The Slave Orcs work nicely, making it cheaper to gain access to more War Machines and Heores/Monsters. They’re quite comparable to Ghouls, though we didn’t really get a sense for quite how much of a Handicap Yellow-Bellied is. It’s possible they should be five points cheaper.

    Overall a very nice roster, but I still think more variation is needed with the standard infantry.

  12. My immediate reaction was: why is there no “horde” option for orc slaves? That doesn’t sound right at all.

  13. Also, a “slave driver” unit would be cool… something that would counteract the Yellow-bellied rule at the cost of a few extra points.

  14. William Martin, I assume there’s no “Horde” option for Orc slaves beacause any General would worry about arming a massive unit of his slaves and then letting them roam the battlefield. Keep them in smaller groups that are easier to control and put down if the misbehave.

    A “Slave Driver” sort of Character would be a nice addition, maybe letting you reroll failed Yellow-Bellied tests (and perhaps being Inspiring for the Slave Unit only). That way there’s still a chance that regardless of the whip the slaves aren’t going anywhere.

  15. Ok, I’ve gone through the list various times now and I think i figured out where my problem is:

    The list has no weakness!

    While almost all units seem to be ok, if compared to similar units of other races (mortar is a better but also more expensive version of the balefire catapult, sky bull hero is almost identical to the elf on dragon, etc…), the list itself is currently way too strong.

    In almost all categories the Khaos Dwarves can compete with the best units of all other races:

    They have some of the strongest heroes, including a huge flying monster
    They have really good cavalry
    They have amazingly good shooters (breath attack 40??? come on!)
    They have really good and flexible war machine choices
    They have really good infantry (both light and heavy troop choices)

    I just don’t see a single point where the Khaos Dwarves have a real weakness. Every other race has that: Elves are squishy and expensive, dwarves are slow and have neither a monster nor cavalry and most undead troops have rather limited stats.

    I think this is the reason why many players are a bit shocked about this list, especially if they compare them to the poor regular dwarves (why should I want to play those now?).

    Also: The Khaos Dwarves should have another special rule How about something like “hatred” or “magic resistance”?
    And yes, maybe Orc support troops should be available as hordes (but this could become a balancing issue…).

    So far from me, I hope I did not sound too negative (which really isn’t my intention!). 🙂

    Best regards!

  16. Well, their main weakness is that they have no long range shooters (not taking in account warmachines). They have to come in contact to start dealing damages… which is an important issue when most of your units have a speed of 4 ! Also, their magicians can’t heal.

    Anyway, the issue is the same : improve regular dwarfs’ list !

  17. And I’ve got a question : what happened to the Goblin Advisor ? :p

  18. @Guillaume L.
    ” they have no long range shooters”

    In my view of the rules their shooters have the same range as elven bowmen or dwarven crossbowmen /handgunners namely 24″

    You can read it like they have the 12″ range breath attack on the thunder pipers on top of (special rule) their regular shooting.

    I hope someone can clarify this.

  19. A 24″ range breath attack would definitively be overpowered ! But I see what you mean.

  20. What i mean is a 12″ breath attack like grapeshot.

    So a normal 12(short range) and 24″ (long range) normal attack and a special breath attack of 12″. The rules arent clear on that. Of course when the enemy is in 12″ range you ll always use the special breath attack.

  21. I see this problem with the rules too. I’m pretty sure that the thunderpipes are supposed to be used with the breath attack only, but the rules could be read the otehr way as well.

    And even if they only have the breath attack, I still think that the Thunderpipers are much too strong at the moment. They can move and shoot which is a huge advantage and improves their effective range to 16″. The don’t suffer a penalty for moving and shooting (breath attacks never do) and no unit can charge them (apart from flyers and very fast cavalry) without having to deal with at least one round of heavy fire. I would never field the regular warriors under these circumstances.

    If an enemy unit charges the Thunderpipers, it will most likely suffer huge damage befor if even arrives. after the first round of combat (that will most likely not e enough to kill the Thunderpipers), the pipers will simply shoot again with 40 dice hitting on a 4+…

    I would suggest to reduce the number of attack dice for the breath attack significantly and I would even think about reducing their maximum unit size to a regiment (Inf 20).
    Another helpful idea could be to reduce the melee value of the thunderpipers to 5+. They are not meant for close combat and they have worse close combat weapons than the regular warriors. Why should they have equal values? This would also make the Blacksouls more attractive.

    And one last bit: The golem seems to be a bit overpowered at the moment. De 6+, Ne 8 and 8 attacks is too much. Even without the “individual” rule this thing is almost unstopable…

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